 First Meeting:
Transcript of June 21
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1
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3 Meeting
4 of the
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ADVISORY COMMISSION ON ELECTRONIC COMMERCE
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held on
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JUNE 21, 1999
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at
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THE WILLIAMSBURG LODGE
18 WILLIAMSBURG, VIRGINIA
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23 COOK & WILEY, INC.
Registered Professional Reporters
24 Post Office Box 14582
Richmond, Virginia 23221
25 (804) 359-1984
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1 MEMBERS:
2 The Honorable James S. Gilmore, Chairman
Governor, Commonwealth of Virginia
3 State Capitol, Third Floor
Richmond, Virginia 23219
4
Mr. Dean F. Andal
5 Chairman, California Board of Equalization
754 Shoreline Drive, Suite D
6 Stockton, California 95219
7 Mr. Michael Armstrong
Chief Executive Office, AT&T
8 32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013
9
Mr. Joseph H. Guttentag
10 Senior Advisor to the
Assistant Secretary for Tax Policy
11 U. S. Department of the Treasury
1500 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Room 3330
12 Washington, D. C. 20220
13 The Honorable Paul C. Harris
Delegate, Virginia House of Delegates
14 100 Court Square Annex, Suite B
Charlottesville, Virginia 22902
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Ms. Delna Jones
16 Commissioner, Washington County
Administrative Offices
17 155 North First Avenue, Suite MS22
Hillsboro, Oregon 97124
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The Honorable Ron Kirk
19 Mayor, City of Dallas
1500 Marilla Street, Suite 5EN
20 Dallas, Texas 75201
21 The Honorable Michael O. Leavitt
Governor, State of Utah
22 State Capitol, Suite 210
Salt Lake City, Utah 84114
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1 Mr. Gene N. Lebrun
President, National Conference of
2 Commissioners on Uniform State Laws
First National Bank Building, 8th Floor
3 909 St. Joseph Street
P. O. Box 8520
4 Rapid City, South Dakota 57709
5 The Honorable Gary Locke
Governor, State of Washington
6 Legislative Building
Olympia, Washington 98504
7
Mr. Grover Norquist
8 President, Americans for Tax Reform
1320 18th Street, NW, Suite 200
9 Washington, D. C. 20036
10 Mr. Robert Novick
Counselor, U. S. Trade Representative
11 600 17th Street, NW
Washington, D. C. 20508
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Mr. Andrew Pincus
13 General Counsel, U. S. Department of Commerce
14th Street and Constitution Avenue, NW, Room 5858
14 Washington, D. C. 20230
15 Mr. David Pottruck
President and Co-Chief Executive Officer
16 Charles Schwab Corporation
101 Montgomery Street, 28th Floor
17 San Francisco, California 94104
18 Mr. John W. Sidgmore
Vice Chairman, MCI Worldcom and Chairman, UUNET
19 MCI Worldcom
8620 Willow Oaks
20 Fairfax, Virginia 22031
21 Mr. Stanley S. Sokul
Davidson & Company, Inc.
22 1101 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Suite 810
Washington, D. C. 20004
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Mr. Theodore Waitt
24 Chairman and CEO, Gateway, Inc.
610 Gateway Drive
25 North Sioux City, South Dakota 57049
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2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, Ladies and Gentlemen,
3 welcome to Williamsburg. We're delighted to see
4 all of you-all here for this first meeting of
5 the Congressional Commission to the Advisory
6 Commission on Electronic Commerce. I want to
7 welcome you here and call this first meeting to
8 order.
9 We are, of course, an unorganized body up
10 to this point, but we're very excited about the
11 prospects of the advice that this Commission can
12 give the Congress as we work through the issues
13 over the next year.
14 I want to welcome all of you to
15 Williamsburg, selected here in Virginia, at
16 least for the beginning of this Commission, as
17 the home of the rights, liberties of man, and
18 that's what we thought we would like to do.
19 We would like to begin, with a liberating
20 institution of the Internet and eCommerce, to
21 begin in a historical location like this.
22 Naturally, there will be other opportunities to
23 travel across the rest of the country as well.
24 Calling the meeting to order, the first
25 order of business so that we can at least get
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1 started is to have the formal election of the
2 Chair.
3 Is there a motion for election of the
4 Chair?
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: I would like to put forward
6 a motion.
7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Armstrong of AT&T.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: I think possibly one of the
9 wisest things that Congress did was to delegate
10 this from the Congress to a body of industry and
11 state and local leadership, and with leaders
12 like Locke, Leavitt, and Gilmore that are here
13 to help, there is no doubt in my mind that we're
14 going to get this job done.
15 And I would like to nominate a man who
16 knows a lot about this subject. He studied it,
17 he's been involved, and thus he knows that our
18 task is not easy.
19 In fact, he has the most, I think,
20 knowledge on technology, and, in fact, the
21 nation's only technology director. If you
22 listen to what he has had to say on the subject
23 or read his speech, you know he comes with a
24 very balanced view, and he not only supports
25 what we're going to do, he has financially
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1 supported what we're going to do, and I am proud
2 to nominate James Gilmore as our Chairman.
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Second?
4 MR. HARRIS: I would like to second the
5 nomination.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Second by Mr. Harris.
7 Any other nominations?
8 All in favor of my election as Chairman,
9 please say aye.
10 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye.
11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Any
12 opposed?
13 None opposed? Okay. Thank you very much.
14 So that we can get started on this.
15 Once again, welcome to Williamsburg, and
16 also I want to recognize what we're doing here
17 this afternoon.
18 This is an organizational meeting. The
19 goal, naturally, of the meetings that we will
20 hold all throughout this conference over the
21 next year is to hear from people, to examine and
22 get information, and then to determine what
23 recommendations, if any, we feel that we can
24 afford to the Congress.
25 I expect there will be a lot of discussion
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1 constantly, including tomorrow afternoon,
2 between the members so we can begin to define
3 the issues and address the issues.
4 But this afternoon, this is an opportunity
5 for us to get together to get some of the
6 organizational things out of the way.
7 The next item is an oath of office. Among
8 the paperwork that the staff has presented to
9 you is a document marked Appointment Affidavits.
10 This is an oath of office as an advisory member
11 of this Commission.
12 If you-all would please examine that and
13 sign it, there is a notary public here in the
14 room that will collect these and then mark those
15 down and make those part of the record of our
16 Commission.
17 In the meanwhile, I would ask, as a matter
18 of formality, would the members please be
19 prepared to take an oath of office. I will
20 administer the oath to the group, if you would
21 raise your right hand, please.
22 Including myself, please state: I do
23 solemnly swear that I will support and defend
24 the Constitution of the United States against
25 all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will
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1 bear truth and allegiance to the same, that I
2 take this obligation freely without any mental
3 reservation or purpose of evasion, that I will
4 well and faithfully discharge the duties of the
5 office under which I'm about to enter, so help
6 me God.
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8 (The oath was repeated by the members.)
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10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Ladies
11 and Gentlemen. Again, if you will endorse the
12 appointment affidavits that are there, the
13 notary public will then collect those at the
14 immediate time and then make those part of the
15 record.
16 I want to thank all of you-all for being
17 here today for this organizational meeting of
18 the National Advisory Commission on Electronic
19 Commerce. I appreciate very much all of you
20 traveling here to Williamsburg.
21 I think that, as I have stated, it is a
22 fine setting for this historic occasion. So
23 much of our history as a free nation has been
24 written here in Williamsburg, and in historic
25 Jamestown, and Yorktown as well, and today we
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1 begin to write another chapter. It's a chapter
2 involving electronic commerce and chartering the
3 future of electronic commerce in America.
4 The Commission is charged with one of the
5 most far-reaching and difficult tasks in
6 history. The recommendation will change the
7 lives of all America's on-line citizens, and I
8 don't think that I exaggerate with this.
9 This is the first time that I can think of
10 that we're dealing with an issue that is
11 literally global in scope, and the impact that
12 we have with our recommendations, if enacted by
13 the Congress, will affect eCommerce across the
14 globe, particularly with our dominant position
15 right now in information technology in the
16 United States.
17 Never before has there been a medium with
18 this type of profound and pervasive impact on
19 more people's lives than the Internet. It is
20 the most democratic and commercially explosive
21 force that I think has ever been invented,
22 particularly in the free world of communication.
23 The opportunities for us to advance
24 civilization are endless, but we, the members of
25 this Commission, must seize the moment.
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1 I'm honored that you have elected me as
2 your Chairman. I want to thank you for that.
3 The letter that many of you signed earlier in
4 support of my election was appreciated.
5 I have had, as all of you have, a great
6 interest and involvement in this. I have
7 supported the Internet Tax Freedom Act and have
8 chaired an Information Technology Commission
9 that has become law, much of their
10 recommendations here in the Commonwealth of
11 Virginia.
12 But everyone who has been appointed is
13 deeply involved with the development of this
14 medium. Many people here are involved with the
15 commerce on it. People are involved with the
16 regulation of it.
17 There are members of this Commission who
18 are very concerned from the point of view of
19 legislators and local elected firms as well as
20 three governors.
21 There is a great deal, I think, of
22 expertise that the Congress has appointed on
23 this Commission. As the Chairman, I want to use
24 the experience that I bring to this and draw
25 upon the experience that each of you has to
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1 advance this Commission.
2 And the concerned citizens that also will
3 want to have input with us as we go along on
4 these meetings as well in order to produce
5 something that is concrete, a useful conclusion
6 that we could submit to the Congress for their
7 disposition.
8 The Congress, of course, will dispose of
9 this. This Commission does not legislate, but
10 it does have, I believe, the ability, through
11 the strength and wisdom of its activities over
12 the next year, to have credibility with the
13 Congress so that we can present something or
14 perhaps more than one option to the Congress
15 that will make sense.
16 It is my intention as Chairman to be fair
17 and to be as thorough as possible, and that is
18 the commitment that I have made to each of you
19 and the commitment I make to the American people
20 through you.
21 I want to thank you for your confidence and
22 your trust. We should move forward to complete
23 this mission and meet this greatest commercial
24 challenge of the information age.
25 Now, as I said, today is an organizational
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1 meeting, and tomorrow is going to be a much more
2 substantive meeting. The meeting that will be
3 held tomorrow will give the opportunity for
4 information to be obtained, but when I saw a
5 proposed draft agenda, I knew immediately that
6 we had to reserve time at the end of the day for
7 a great deal of free discussion among the people
8 who are here for this meeting, and we have, in
9 fact, reserved a significant amount of time for
10 the formulation and sharpening up of the issues
11 as we go forward.
12 This Commission, I might say, we're meeting
13 despite all obstacles, you see. The Congress
14 didn't give us an awful lot of guidance to go
15 on. It defined that we had to pick a Chairman,
16 and that we had to find some way to fund
17 ourselves, and we had to find some way to meet,
18 but they didn't give us a great deal of
19 guidance.
20 After your letter and your support as
21 Chairman, not to be presumptuous, but with the
22 complete discussions with each and every person
23 here in this room, I have made an effort to go
24 forward on the housekeeping to get as much of it
25 behind us today on this first meeting as
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1 possible so that we can move as quickly as
2 possible to substantive information and
3 discussions about the medium and the Internet.
4 This Committee, of course, will define and
5 dispose of even the housekeeping measures, and
6 I'm sensitive to that. So I have a series of
7 things that I have done and I'm going to propose
8 to do today.
9 If it meets with your approval, we can get
10 this out of the way. If there are any
11 suggestions and amendments anyone has, naturally
12 we will take them up in proper order here and
13 we'll continue to move ahead. But our objective
14 today was to get this on its way.
15 First of all, I have taken the liberty to,
16 so that we could, in fact, have a meeting of
17 this type of degree, to seek out and find an
18 appropriate person to be an Executive Director.
19 I would like to introduce to everyone
20 Heather Rosenker. She has been vice president
21 of Communications Company. She has worked on
22 the Council on Environmental Quality in
23 Washington, D. C. She was vice president and
24 group manager of Slack, Bryan and Myers in
25 Chicago, Illinois.
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1 She has worked as an account manager of the
2 Kamber Group in Washington, D. C. She has
3 worked also as -- for White House presidential
4 advance. She has worked on a large number of
5 other types of organizations like that.
6 She was the winner in terms of an extensive
7 interview process for persons that we thought
8 would be a competent, successful supporter of
9 this Commission.
10 So, Ladies and Gentlemen, without
11 objection, Heather Rosenker will serve as the
12 Executive Director, unless there is some other
13 proposal.
14 She has, in fact, already gone forward and
15 done all the arrangements for this meeting and
16 has done the paperwork for the advanced work
17 that all of you have done.
18 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Mr. Chairman --
19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir.
20 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: -- I have only met
21 Heather today, and she appears to be a person of
22 extraordinary ability, and it also seems clear
23 to me that we have to have someone and she is
24 certainly a very able person on an interim
25 basis.
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1 I'm wondering, however, given the nature
2 and importance of this, if there should be -- if
3 the Executive Director ought to be hired by the
4 Commission after some deliberation among the
5 Commission members as opposed to simply having
6 had the person to begin with.
7 I just throw that out as a matter of
8 question. I don't know if there are other
9 Commissioners that feel that way.
10 It seems to me, hiring a CEO -- no
11 indeference to Heather -- I'm wondering if we
12 should have some broader discussion among the
13 Commissioners of who that should be.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly the Commission is
15 available to discuss any matter that they would
16 like to. And if there is another proposal for
17 Executive Director at this or any other meeting,
18 of course the matter can be taken up.
19 She has, of course, already done all of the
20 substantive work in order to get ready for this
21 meeting, but if there is another proposal --
22 Would you propose, Mike, that a person be
23 hired at the next meeting?
24 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I guess I'll make a
25 formal proposal. I would suggest that Heather
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1 be appointed the Interim Executive Director and
2 a Committee be appointed by the Chair for the
3 purpose of being able to review, first of all,
4 the criteria. What is the criteria that this
5 group wants to have for the Executive Director?
6 Second of all, I would like to know, do we
7 have any -- are there any reasons for us to be
8 looking for one kind of person or another?
9 I just think it would be valuable for us as
10 a Commission to appoint Heather. I would move
11 for her adoption as Interim Executive Director
12 but move for the Chair to review it and to make
13 recommendations either by mail ballot or
14 adoption at our next meeting on a permanent
15 basis.
16 MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion on the
17 table that I will speak to in a few moments, but
18 first, Dean Andal.
19 MR. ANDAL: I'm not for that proposal. I
20 think that one of the difficulties of dealing
21 with this task that comes before us, we all come
22 from different walks of life and from all over
23 the United States. It's very difficult for us
24 to get to know each other. As a matter of fact,
25 most of us are meeting each other for the first
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1 time today.
2 We also have a limited time available for
3 us to conduct our business and report back to
4 Congress. Interim is probably what the
5 permanent is. This is not likely to last long.
6 We're going to have, it looks like, three more
7 meetings. I think the uncertainty of an interim
8 appointment would just undermine Heather's
9 efforts.
10 I think she is qualified to do the job.
11 She seems -- From the material I was sent, she
12 has had experience in other types of Commission
13 work in Washington. And I'm not sure that there
14 is any reason to not appoint her permanently and
15 give her that license to work on our behalf.
16 I think it's difficult for us as a
17 Commission to hire and fire employees. I think
18 that's something we're going to have to, because
19 of logistical problems, leave to our Chairman.
20 I would rather make a substantive motion to
21 approve the recommendation by the Chairman and
22 leave it as it is.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a substitute motion
24 on the floor to adopt Heather as the permanent
25 Executive Director. Other comments on this?
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1 Other persons wish to speak to this?
2 I would say two things myself. First of
3 all, it's been pretty tough to get this thing
4 going as it is, and we have worked pretty hard
5 to do that. And I want to congratulate Heather
6 for taking this on, you know, as a matter of
7 hope that she would be in a position to do this
8 service to the Commission.
9 I do not see her as a policymaker. This is
10 a small enough group that I would expect the
11 members of the Commission to make all the
12 policies.
13 She is, of course, here as the Executive
14 Director to help us with the direction and
15 movement of paper and the handling of
16 arrangements and the coordination of people.
17 But I would not foresee any staff person
18 foreclosing any single member of the Commission
19 in any way.
20 Is there other discussion on this?
21 Mr. Guttentag.
22 MR. GUTTENTAG: I had a related question,
23 and the budget will come up later for
24 discussion, but I'm wondering here about making
25 this permanent commitment when we have yet to
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1 secure the sources of funds. As you pointed
2 out, Mr. Chairman, we don't have a source of
3 funds yet.
4 I'm wondering if we should defer making
5 permanent commitments on the part of the
6 Commission until at least we have determined
7 whether we have the source of the funds and
8 whether we have enough to be able to pay her
9 salary.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Sounds fine. If people
11 would like to defer this discussion until we
12 take up the matter of the budget, that will be
13 perfectly fine. Why don't we do that unless
14 there is objection.
15 Very good.
16 There is a proposed charter that is in your
17 books on the Advisory Commission. The proposed
18 charter sets down the purpose of the Commission,
19 the authority as contained within the statute,
20 the structure as set down within the statute.
21 It is basically a restatement of the statutory
22 matter.
23 There are some additional matters with
24 respect to administration, meetings,
25 compensation, all of this laid down for the
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1 Commission. It is the proposed charter for us
2 to proceed.
3 Has everyone seen a copy of the proposed
4 charter?
5 Is there a motion regarding the charter or
6 any discussion -- Is there a motion for the
7 adoption of the charter?
8 MR. LEBRUN: Mr. Chairman --
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion to adopt
10 the charter.
11 Mr. Lebrun, do you have -- do you think
12 that we should engage in discussion, or did you
13 want to make a motion?
14 MR. LEBRUN: That's a good question. The
15 one in the book is dated June 8, '99, and there
16 was a handout on your table dated June 17th. I
17 assume the 17th is the one we're talking about?
18 MS. ROSENKER: Yes, sir.
19 MR. LEBRUN: Thank you.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: This is Draft 2 that I
21 have?
22 MS. ROSENKER: That's correct.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is it significantly
24 different?
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: The date is different.
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1 Is there any discussion on the content of
2 the charter? It is not intended to be a
3 controversial matter, but merely to set down the
4 guidelines as set out in the statute.
5 Is there a motion to adopt the charter?
6 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I make a motion to adopt
7 the charter.
8 MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor?
9 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: All opposed?
11 The charter is adopted.
12 There are proposed operating rules also in
13 your paperwork, Advisory Commission on
14 Electronic Commerce, Operating Rules. The rules
15 are, I think, straightforward. They have been
16 under some discussion.
17 Any members who wish to make some comments
18 regarding the rules, they have been changed and
19 altered and adopted in order to accommodate the
20 concerns of anyone, if any.
21 They are, I think, general in context.
22 They give us at least a working format with
23 which to proceed.
24 Does anyone have any comment on the
25 proposed rules? Any changes?
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1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Chairman, I just
2 circled one little item here, that the
3 Commission shall report its findings to the
4 Congress by April 21, 2000.
5 Is that a hard commitment, we're going to
6 be that smart by that time frame, or is there
7 any flexibility?
8 MR. CHAIRMAN: I think there is not
9 flexibility. The statute calls for a report
10 within 18 months of the formation of the
11 Commission, which was done on October 21 of
12 1998. So we have that date that we are supposed
13 to report to the Congress.
14 Naturally, of course, at the end of the
15 process, the Commission might seek to petition
16 the Congress for an extension, if one is called
17 for. But the proposed work plan that I think we
18 have put forward on meetings and the framework
19 we have set out hopefully will get us to a
20 conclusion by that date but will probably
21 require additional action.
22 Governor Leavitt.
23 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Mr. Chairman, I again
24 want to congratulate you and the staff that's
25 worked on this to bring us a format. I would
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1 suggest, however, that these rules are pro forma
2 perfunctory. These are very important, and I
3 was handed, as I came in today, a new copy of
4 rules that I have not had a chance to look at.
5 I don't know if there are changes or not.
6 I would like to propose that we take the
7 time to go through the rules a paragraph at a
8 time and make sure we all understand them and
9 we're comfortable with each part.
10 I know that is time-consuming. I don't
11 think we would do anything more important in the
12 next two days than understand the rules and the
13 context under which we will operate.
14 I would move to go through the rules a
15 paragraph at a time, if you need a formal motion
16 on this.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion that we
18 proceed through the rules paragraph by
19 paragraph.
20 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: At least section by
21 section.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Or at least section by
23 section.
24 Have the members of the Commission had an
25 opportunity to review the rules?
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1 The choice that is before the Commission
2 is, if you're comfortable with the rules, we can
3 adopt them; if you would like to go through them
4 paragraph by paragraph, we will do that.
5 That will take us some time here today. I'm
6 amenable to that if you would like.
7 David?
8 MR. POTTRUCK: Mr. Chairman, I would like
9 to suggest that, rather than go through them
10 paragraph by paragraph, perhaps if Governor
11 Leavitt is uncomfortable moving to adopt if he
12 hasn't had a chance to read, which I can
13 certainly understand, we can make it the first
14 order of business tomorrow morning to approve
15 them and go over any issues by exception that
16 come up, presuming many of them will be
17 straightforward.
18 Those who have questions, perhaps we can do
19 it that way and use tonight to study them and
20 come up with any issues that anybody may have.
21 That would be a proposal.
22 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: That's acceptable to me.
23 I would like to have a considerable
24 opportunity for discussion. There are numerous
25 points from my previous reading of the last
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1 draft that I had, and I have not had a chance to
2 have input into these. I don't know if everyone
3 has. I would be very happy with that.
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to make it very clear
5 that anyone can have any input into these rules
6 or any other matter, that this is going to be a
7 process that is very open, and we certainly can
8 take these up as a matter of adoption first
9 thing in the morning.
10 However, the timetable that we have for the
11 morning is planned so as to provide the maximum
12 amount of information to the Commission so that
13 we can act in an expeditious manner tomorrow.
14 If the meeting goes down into several hours
15 of wrangling over the rules, we're going to at
16 that point have to cut the agenda short.
17 Therefore, I would propose that we take up
18 any issues that we know about right now right
19 now in this organizational meeting that was
20 designed, although I am certainly amenable to
21 David Pottruck's suggestion that we adopt them
22 first thing in the morning.
23 But in the meanwhile, Mike, why don't you
24 let us know what your concerns are with respect
25 to the rules so that we can have overnight to
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1 think about it.
2 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well, again, I'm marking
3 up from a previous draft, so I'm not sure where
4 they match up.
5 I would like to talk, for example, in the
6 Meetings section about how we call ourselves
7 together. I would like to talk in the Quorum
8 section about reference to the proxy voting. I
9 understand that that has been taken out. I
10 would like to talk about the purpose of that.
11 I would also like to talk some about the
12 conduct of business section. Again I have
13 looked at two drafts of this. I'm trying to
14 reconcile which draft it is in.
15 If you would like to preserve time, I would
16 be very pleased to make a list of the concerns I
17 have and circulate them. If I'm the only one, I
18 don't want to hold it up.
19 There are a couple of things, for example,
20 I'm wondering why we would operate with a quorum
21 less than the majority.
22 MR. ANDAL: It's in the statute.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Just one moment. First of
24 all, you expressed three concerns, on Meetings,
25 Proxy, and conduct of business, and by way of a
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1 quorum. Are those issues that you have concerns
2 about?
3 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Let me just deal with a
4 couple of them now. If I can dispose of them, I
5 would be very happy to move on the nature of the
6 rules with an understanding we come back and
7 have another discussion at a future time.
8 My purpose isn't to hold the meeting up.
9 My purpose is to say it's very important. I
10 will mention one in particular. Maybe it's not
11 in this draft.
12 The last draft I saw, there were means by
13 which a proxy vote would occur. The latest
14 draft, that is not there.
15 There is included in Section IVA, second
16 paragraph, the phrase "unless the procedures for
17 vote by proxy are followed."
18 I assume that may be a drafting error where
19 that should have been deleted, but in that we
20 have deleted the proxy voting process, it would
21 seem to me that that ought to be amended,
22 however.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: As a matter of fact, the
24 rules, I think, do contain no provision at this
25 point for proxy other than naturally the
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1 designated by statute Federal members who sit on
2 the Commission, so there is no provision within
3 these rules of proxy voting.
4 To the extent that the language in IVA is
5 inconsistent, "must be present," the language
6 "unless the procedures for vote by proxy are
7 followed" can be stricken, in fact, should be
8 stricken.
9 Is there any objection to striking that
10 language in order to make it consistent with no
11 proxy voting?
12 Joe, I'm coming to you in just a second.
13 Let me see if we can square some of these away.
14 Meetings, is there an issue on meetings?
15 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: The last paragraph on
16 that page, again, I think I'm on the right
17 draft, "For votes on substantive findings and
18 recommendations, including amendments to
19 findings and recommendations to be included in a
20 Commission report, the Chairman shall request a
21 motion for a vote. Any member of the Commission
22 present, including the Chairman, may make a
23 motion for a vote after proper notice to the
24 Chairman."
25 The question, "after proper notice to the
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1 Chairman," I'm unfamiliar with that as a
2 process.
3 I'm just wondering if we could strike that,
4 just giving the members of the Commission the
5 ability to make that or if there is a reason for
6 that.
7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Which point of language?
8 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: The fourth line.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: We are in Section IV,
10 Meetings, Section A, Quorum and Voting
11 Procedures, third paragraph, "For votes on
12 substantive findings and recommendations,
13 including amendments to findings and
14 recommendations to be included in a Commission
15 report, the Chairman shall request a motion for
16 a vote. Any member of the Commission present,
17 including the Chairman, may make a motion for a
18 vote after proper notice to the Chairman."
19 That language, I believe, was placed there
20 for the purpose of giving full notice to the
21 Chairman and all members. It's there as a
22 30-day notice requirement, I believe -- this is
23 reports of the Commission, interim reports of
24 the Commission, and there would be a motion to
25 make sure that all motions were on the table and
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1 they were not -- no trial by ambush, so to
2 speak, so that any motion that came before the
3 body could be submitted in advance.
4 But if it is the preference of the
5 Commission not to do that and simply have any
6 motion available at the final moment, that's all
7 right, too.
8 What is the pleasure of the Commission?
9 Would you like to strike out proper notice to
10 the Chairman for substantive votes on final
11 reports, or would you like to leave that in?
12 MR. POTTRUCK: Do you not know what proper
13 notice means?
14 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: It seems improper for a
15 person to make a motion to have some form of
16 proper notice to the Chairman. We are all able
17 to make motions. I think it would be cleaner if
18 we had the capacity -- I'm not sure it's
19 necessary.
20 MR. ANDAL: I will move to strike it.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Second.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor of striking the
23 language, please say aye.
24 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye.
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: All opposed, nay?
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1 It is stricken.
2 The quorum, we have determined it's
3 statutory and it has to be in there.
4 Anything else in the conduct of business or
5 any other language of the rules that you're
6 aware of?
7 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I have just received
8 this draft. I'm not being critical. I know
9 this has been work in progress.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.
11 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: We have taken the proxy
12 part out.
13 MR. CHAIRMAN: Other than the statutory
14 proxy allowed by the three Federal
15 representatives.
16 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: There was a point in the
17 previous draft I wanted to make certain we
18 changed, that "The Chairman shall determine
19 whether substantive findings and recommendations
20 to be included in the final report are to be
21 voted individually or in bloc." Did we change
22 that? It was under the quorum --
23 MR. PINCUS: It's in that same paragraph.
24 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I had a question about
25 that. There may be a practical reason for that.
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1 It seems to me that that could have some --
2 could be a substantial -- in terms of where
3 things are traded off, that could ultimately
4 have a substantial amount of importance.
5 It seems to me that a better way to do that
6 would be an additional way of someone making a
7 recommendation and letting the Commission vote
8 up or down whether or not that was appropriate.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there agreement in the
10 body that recommendations shall simply be
11 offered by members without regard to whether
12 they will be individually or in bloc?
13 The language that is addressed is again in
14 Section IVA, third paragraph, right below the
15 language we were just addressing a few moments
16 ago. "The Chairman shall determine whether
17 substantive findings and recommendations to be
18 included in the final report are to be voted
19 individually or in bloc, including approval of
20 Commission reports and amendments to Commission
21 reports."
22 In short, the language would be, if we come
23 to an issue where we have it all together, then
24 we can all vote it in bloc or we could vote it
25 individually as the Chairman would suggest.
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1 But if the Commission would prefer to have
2 that ability to vote on each individual item,
3 that's perfectly all right.
4 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Or make a motion to say
5 I would like to take the following things in
6 bloc and do one at a time.
7 The Commission ought to control, in my
8 assessment, the level at which we vote it in.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Acceptable to the Chairman.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: That is reasonable.
11 MR. ANDAL: Second.
12 MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor of reducing
13 that language say aye?
14 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye.
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: All opposed?
16 Very good. Anything else?
17 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Again, I'm struggling to
18 find the right point here. There was a point
19 where there was discussion on the appointment of
20 committees. I wanted to make certain that the
21 committees -- It seems to me the committees
22 would be appointed by the Chair but ratified
23 by -- The Commission ought to be appointing --
24 developing its own committees, not --
25 MR. PINCUS: Section 6.
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1 MR. ANDAL: It appears that that change was
2 made.
3 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I think that's a
4 valuable change.
5 MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe that was raised
6 and we responded to that.
7 MR. ANDAL: How would that work? The
8 Chairman would suggest it and be ratified by the
9 Commission?
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe that's right.
11 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Or the Commission would
12 desire to have a committee and enact it by
13 adoption.
14 Under Waiver of Rules, section number X, it
15 would again seem to me the Commission ought to
16 be waiving the rules. Maybe that's made by
17 two-thirds of the voting members.
18 MR. CHAIRMAN: The language involved is
19 "The Chairman may, in his discretion, waive any
20 rule herein not otherwise inconsistent with
21 Public Law 105-277 upon a vote of at least
22 two-thirds of the members of the Commission
23 currently serving, present, and eligible to
24 vote."
25 I believe that looks like more of an
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1 organizational issue as opposed to anything
2 else.
3 If it makes the language feel more
4 comfortable, I think this is more or less
5 administrative.
6 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I'm prepared to withdraw
7 that.
8 Let's look at VII. This is an awkward one,
9 because I haven't met Heather. I don't mean any
10 of this pointed at her.
11 I'm wondering about the relationship of the
12 Executive Director and the Commission. "The
13 Executive Director shall serve as the
14 Commission's agent for all matters related to
15 the Commission's activities."
16 I think in a previous draft, I saw that was
17 under the Chairman. I think I'm probably
18 satisfied with that.
19 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is this language
20 satisfactory to every member of the Commission?
21 It basically designates an Executive Director
22 serving as the agent for this Commission.
23 Obviously, if she wants to set up rooms or
24 arrange for speakers or do any of the matters,
25 the administrative business, we need a person to
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1 do that.
2 MR. POTTRUCK: It looks more like the chief
3 administrative officer than a CEO, at least I
4 hope so.
5 MR. SIDGMORE: We certainly don't want to
6 be doing this.
7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Without objection -- Is
8 there objection to any language in that
9 provision by any member of the Commission?
10 Mike, any other issue?
11 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: There may be. Rather
12 than holding this up, I'm comfortable with the
13 assurance we can come back and revisit this if
14 we want to.
15 MR. CHAIRMAN: I see no reason why the
16 Commission can't reassess rules if it seeks to
17 do that. The exercise is to get organized and
18 get moving.
19 MR. GUTTENTAG: Just on that point, I would
20 like to suggest that after we move forward after
21 tomorrow, we're going to be adopting a plan for
22 moving ahead. I think the staff has done a
23 wonderful job of providing us with a set of
24 rules. They have certainly taken into account,
25 I think, the comments Governor Leavitt has made.
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1 I think, following up on this,
2 Mr. Chairman, we need a set of rules to guide us
3 for tomorrow's meeting.
4 I would suggest that we put in the rules
5 and put it on the agenda for the next meeting of
6 the Commission, with the understanding it's
7 without prejudice to the fact that they were
8 adopted here today, and if new issues come up
9 after a thorough reading, or what happens
10 tomorrow or what happens in the future causes a
11 need for new rules, I think we could reconsider
12 them.
13 MR. ANDAL: I'll move approval of the rules
14 on that basis, that the next meeting would be an
15 opportunity for anybody who doesn't like the
16 rules to make amendments to it at that time.
17 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Second.
18 MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favor say aye.
19 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposed?
21 Rules are adopted. They will be placed
22 back on the agenda for the meeting that will be
23 held at a future time, assuming you want to have
24 a second meeting.
25 Thank you. Now for the real fun. We'll
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1 move on to the issue of the budget.
2 Now, Ladies and Gentlemen, has everyone
3 within their package of materials identified the
4 proposed budget? Now, let me speak to you about
5 this just for a moment.
6 Please recall that Congress did not provide
7 any money for the operation of this Commission.
8 We have a Commission here to offer a
9 recommendation on a proposed piece of
10 legislation with respect to the operation of
11 eCommerce on the Internet, and this Commission
12 ought to be handled in a professional way. Yet
13 there are no funds that have been offered for
14 this Commission.
15 Obviously, a challenge ahead of us is to
16 deal with this and to handle it. We have put
17 forth proposals for you-all that we believe does
18 address these issues in a proper way.
19 First of all, with respect to the expense
20 side of this, it reflects what we believe are
21 going to be reasonable expenses of the
22 Commission, and then I want to take up the
23 revenue issue with you separately.
24 This has been developed after examining
25 what typically other Commissions similarly
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1 situated do and what they are obligated to do,
2 and again, anticipating we would have a total of
3 four meetings in different geographical areas of
4 the United States, particularly areas very
5 involved with information technology.
6 Naturally, if it is the desire of this
7 Commission to have more meetings or fewer
8 meetings, it will change the budget. This is a
9 budget we have put forward for all of you-all.
10 In fact, should there be an extension at a
11 later time, we would have to address the
12 financial issues all over again at a later time.
13 But this does reflect any contributions we have
14 already secured.
15 My Chairmanship and the Executive Director
16 and the staff people in Virginia working to get
17 this thing up and running, we have already
18 secured permanent office space for the
19 Commission as an in-kind contribution.
20 We have drafted, if you will, legal counsel
21 that has offered to give us his services.
22 Thomas Griffith, who is, in fact, here in the
23 room who has also offered in- kind
24 contributions.
25 There are others as well. In fact, the
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1 Commonwealth of Virginia has already placed in
2 to the budget $150,000 cash. We have already
3 donated.
4 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Which I think we should
5 give you a round of applause.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: I hope you will be clapping
7 again in a few minutes.
8 I will take that as a sign of unanimity as
9 we move on. Before we begin, and we will talk
10 about this later a little bit more, but I'm
11 going to ask our counsel, Tom Griffith, of
12 Wiley, Rein & Fielding from Washington, D. C.,
13 to discuss for a moment this gift acceptance
14 language that exists in the act. Tom Griffith
15 of Wiley, Rein & Fielding.
16 MR. GRIFFITH: Congress was clear in its
17 intent that the role of the Federal government
18 in this Commission was minimal. Congress
19 expressed this intent in a few ways.
20 It gave the Commission gift authority but
21 did not appropriate the Commission any funds.
22 The purpose of that, as we have had extensive
23 discussion with the principal drafters, was to
24 provide for the Commission the maximum amount of
25 flexibility to raise funds or to accept in-kind
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1 donations of property or service.
2 That is the freedom that you now have. By
3 and large, the work of the Commission as it
4 regards funding issues, is exempt from the
5 Federal Procurement laws or procurement
6 regulations.
7 That is a significant benefit to the
8 Commission. It makes the work of the Commission
9 a great deal easier than it would otherwise be.
10 You should have in your packet of materials
11 a letter that I wrote and addressed to the
12 Governor's staff to be provided to you about the
13 intent of the statute.
14 There is a proposal -- I believe that the
15 Governor will describe to you in a moment the
16 mechanism -- to accept in-kind donations on
17 behalf of the Commission.
18 We are working with the General Accounting
19 Office, who has given us preliminary indications
20 that their understanding of the arrangement is
21 consistent with the intent of Congress and
22 consistent with Federal law.
23 We would be happy to answer any questions
24 that you might have about it. I believe the
25 Governor is going to explain the particular
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1 arrangements to you.
2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Does anyone have any
3 questions of the lawyer? It's your chance to
4 get free legal advice.
5 If you will examine the budget for just a
6 moment, you will see that we are planning for
7 once again a total of four meetings with the
8 arrangements being proper, I think, for the
9 members of the Commission of this caliber.
10 There is, of course, a need also for staff
11 to supply the data and information necessary for
12 the members at the end of this year to vote in a
13 way that they believe is consistent with the
14 best interests of the people of the United
15 States.
16 There are also funds that are set aside
17 potentially for consultants, and also public
18 outreach is very critical, that the public, as
19 they become more and more aware of the
20 activities of this Commission through the news
21 media and other people, have the opportunity to
22 have their input included, and there is a web
23 site which will give the opportunity for
24 complete input from people across the country.
25 There are office administration and
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1 supplies, although much of that is, I'm pleased
2 to say, we have arranged for that to be in kind.
3 The total proposed budget is $1,976,960.
4 The in-kind contributions already secured
5 through the activities of the Executive Director
6 are 358,200. As stated, the Commonwealth,
7 because of its stake in the Internet and
8 eCommerce, we felt it was appropriate to get
9 started by getting this thing up and running by
10 putting in $150,000, which we have done. This
11 leaves a balance remaining to be secured in
12 order to operate, in our judgment, this
13 Commission in a proper way, $1,468,760.
14 Now, again, the Commission has been --
15 elected the task of funding all costs associated
16 with carrying out this agenda. I would propose
17 that we discuss and come to a consensus today of
18 how we're going to fund this Commission.
19 I propose that we raise these needed funds,
20 which, as I have said, is a little less than 1.5
21 million dollars, through the Commission members.
22 I ask that the organizations that you represent
23 consider contributing a sum of not more than
24 $150,000, I would think the Commonwealth's
25 contribution should probably be the topside of
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1 this, or whatever amount any organization you
2 represent is willing to contribute in order to
3 make this budget a reality.
4 I believe that we should, to the greatest
5 extent we can, balance the amount of the
6 contributions. We should anticipate getting a
7 balanced funding from both the eCommerce
8 companies, who I believe could fund this based
9 upon my knowledge. I believe they could fund
10 this.
11 But I believe also it would be appropriate
12 to have contributions from any state, local
13 governments, the Federal government, or anyone
14 else or any associations that many people are
15 connected with here, because virtually everyone
16 is a member of an association that has an
17 interest in this as well.
18 So that would be what I would propose to
19 do. We have offered our financial support
20 first, of course, and we believe that others,
21 hopefully, will make a contribution as well.
22 I believe that the Commission members, all
23 of the Commission members, are going to want to
24 make a contribution to show the belief in the
25 value of the work in this Commission. But I
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1 would encourage that we agree to, as a group, to
2 fund the activities of the Commission, which I
3 believe was contemplated by Congress.
4 Now, in the event that we can't reach these
5 budget goals by contributions from the
6 Commissioners, but I believe that we can, but if
7 we cannot, I believe, within the public and
8 private sectors, that many others would like to
9 contribute to the success through either
10 financial or in-kind donations as well.
11 As counsel has said and as the statute I
12 think makes it very clear, the Congress
13 contemplated we do precisely this, that we move,
14 in fact, to secure those funds.
15 With your agreement, in fact, in the event
16 that we do not secure the total funds from the
17 group's associations and members of this
18 Commission, then I would propose to form a
19 subcommittee for the purpose of raising the
20 balance from the community in general.
21 That would be to develop a plan and ask
22 others to join us in contributing these
23 necessary funds.
24 Now, I would propose, that in the event
25 that that is necessary, I hope it is not, but if
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1 it is necessary, then I would propose the
2 subcommittee be composed of myself, a member
3 from the electronic commerce business, and one
4 from state and local in order to secure these
5 funds.
6 In addition to raising the money, the goal
7 would be, as great as possible, to make sure we
8 balance these contributions among all interested
9 groups that are here.
10 As a reminder, I would say any gifts or
11 grants not used at the expiration of this
12 Commission would be returned to the donors or
13 guarantors as is, in fact, set out in Section
14 102 C from the Internet Tax Freedom Act.
15 That is the best proposal I can do. If
16 someone has a better idea, the floor is open. I
17 would ask that that proposal be adopted.
18 Is there a discussion?
19 MR. POTTRUCK: First of all, I would like
20 to congratulate you on this work. This is a
21 very thoughtful presentation of the budget.
22 There is one element of the budget that I think
23 is going to be necessary. I guess I'm reviewing
24 my own perspective and perhaps naivete.
25 My guess is that a fair amount of work --
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1 There is a lot of work that has to be done.
2 Some of that work, I believe, is going to have
3 to be done in subcommittees. I don't see any
4 funding here explicit, unless I missed it, for
5 subcommittee meetings.
6 My suspicion is we will have several
7 subcommittees, and they will meet fairly
8 frequently, probably more than the Commission,
9 itself, to get all the work done that has to get
10 done.
11 I would recommend that we do two things:
12 Number one, I would recommend that we put more
13 money in this budget for subcommittees, perhaps
14 take the budget up to say 1.6 million, or 1.65,
15 almost 200,000 or so --
16 Let's say -- I'll be specific with my
17 proposal -- 1,650,000 to put some money in there
18 for the subcommittee work, and just to make sure
19 there is a little bit of a cushion. I don't see
20 any explicit cushion here other than 700,000.
21 The work here is so important. We want to
22 make sure we're not unable to function because
23 of the lack of funds.
24 Secondly, I would propose at least we
25 consider a rather specific proposal. In other
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1 words, take this group into two branches, the
2 business people and the people from the
3 not-for-profit sector, and define a specific
4 contribution level for each, a fair share, if
5 you will, that would be quite different.
6 Understand, businesses have a large stake
7 at this, actually, everybody has a large stake.
8 The businesses could certainly absorb this. It
9 would be a rounding issue at one of our
10 companies, not mine.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: No one in particular.
12 MR. POTTRUCK: No way, no way. Just
13 someone, perhaps. I will mention no names. But
14 we could discuss this forever, and the issue of
15 fairness and representation here and perception
16 is very important, and perhaps if we could come
17 up -- I haven't done the math in my head, but
18 the math of a fair share for the not-for-profit,
19 a fair share for the business, we could dispense
20 with this fairly quickly and move on.
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe there is some
22 information, as a matter of fact, since this
23 will be donated through a foundation, George
24 Mason Foundation, as we have set this up, and
25 the president of George Mason is in the room.
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1 I'm advised that donations may very well be
2 tax deductible, which will be a little bonus
3 here. The proposal here is twofold. Number
4 one, to take this up. The balance that is
5 necessary, looks like, if you rounded it, it's
6 still 1.5 million. Would you propose to go to
7 1.7 to make that work for subcommittee activity?
8 MR. POTTRUCK: Sure.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: The second is to designate a
10 reasonable fair share, perhaps by subcommittee,
11 for each group, and then to, in the absence of
12 the group, to call upon each group by the
13 Executive Director and get checks committed;
14 right? That is the proposal on the table.
15 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Mr. Chairman, I think
16 there will be several groups represented at this
17 table who will have difficulty in coming up with
18 $150,000 or anything. As committed as we are, I
19 don't have any appropriation authority to be
20 able to do this. National Governors Association
21 has three members at this table. That would be
22 $450,000.
23 I can tell you, and you're familiar with
24 this as well, we don't have that budget. It
25 would be my guess that the Federal agencies may
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1 have some difficulty in being able to deal with
2 that.
3 Grover is going to have to get consumers.
4 You have made provision for that, that there
5 would be a means to get it from other big
6 places. I'm wondering if the issue that David
7 raises is so important that perception, I'm
8 wondering --
9 I would like to ask a question and make a
10 suggestion. The question is how are we in the
11 short term? Could we make this operate for a
12 short period of time so we could get a sense for
13 where we are?
14 I believe we ought to be forming a working
15 group, maybe the one you announced, that could
16 include developing some guidelines on how we
17 balance this in a fashion so it's very clear
18 that no one interest overwhelms the process so
19 we discredit the product in the end.
20 I will ask the question. I would be
21 prepared to make -- put an idea on the table.
22 How are we in the short run? Can we make this
23 thing work for a month or two as we get together
24 as a group? Can we arrange a loan from
25 somebody?
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1 MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't think we are doing
2 any debt financing in this Commission.
3 Heather, would you like to speak to this
4 matter? You have been developing this.
5 MS. ROSENKER: Governor, if I understand
6 your question correctly, how long can we operate
7 currently on the $150,000 that the State
8 graciously committed? I think it would be two
9 months. I can't use those funds to pay vendors
10 for this meeting.
11 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Perhaps there would be
12 an organization that is willing to put some
13 money up. I hate us to leave here -- I would
14 like to suggest that the Chair appoint the
15 Budget Committee that could do three things:
16 One, establish some guidelines to propose
17 to the Commission where we get the money and how
18 we do this so that we do have balance coming out
19 of this with this product.
20 Second, make the kinds of recommendations
21 that we talked about, formalize the budget,
22 given our resources.
23 And third, to actually go out and raise the
24 money.
25 It would seem to me, if we have the ability
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1 to keep ourselves together for another two or
2 three months on the basis of the money you have
3 put in and maybe some that respond or have the
4 ability to respond, we should move on in that
5 context.
6 I would like to second Mike's comment that
7 this probably wouldn't look real good if the
8 members of the Commission paid for this.
9 Even though we're probably capable of doing
10 that, I don't think that would be the intent of
11 Congress, and I think it would injure the
12 recommendations that would come forward.
13 On the other hand, maybe, before the first
14 course of wine tonight, the members that are
15 from business who would probably have the most
16 flexibility could meet with Heather and find out
17 what it takes to get some interim financing,
18 because I think the best idea is the one you
19 had, was to appoint some members of us to come
20 forward with a recommendation as to how to fund
21 this thing.
22 In the meantime, I think at least I would
23 offer up, I don't mean to speak for anybody, my
24 own company and myself to put forth what it
25 might take to get interim financing.
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1 MR. SIDGMORE: I would like to agree with
2 Mike on that. If we wound up, let's say, where
3 50 percent of the funds came from AT&T and 50
4 percent from MCI, it probably would not look
5 good to other industries, no less the
6 government.
7 On the other hand, I do think there is a
8 certain amount of money that we could come up
9 with that would look reasonable, certainly in a
10 short term, and certainly fund the first few
11 months and not create these other concerns.
12 I support Mike on that proposal.
13 MR. NORQUIST: I just want to second your
14 original motion, because I think all the
15 comments that follow it fit into it. We move
16 exactly what you said, put a committee of three
17 to work out how much resources we can come up
18 with from this Commission.
19 If we need to make up a budget, let's go
20 outside to do that. I think we should be
21 concerned about appearance or whatever.
22 The members of the Commission is set. It's
23 not based on whether or not one company or
24 another comes up with more money. You don't get
25 more votes if you put in more money.
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1 Somebody can whine if they want to. It has
2 nothing to do with the integrity of the
3 Commission. I think we should be careful and
4 respectful of the people's ability to whine. I
5 don't think we should be terribly concerned
6 about that.
7 I want to second and move your original
8 point, which -- I think the comments made sense,
9 all fit into it. I think everyone was agreeing
10 with you and giving some guidance on what your
11 committee should do.
12 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pincus?
13 MR. PINCUS: I think I agree with that,
14 Mr. Chairman. First of all, one thing I think
15 we could probably all agree on now is
16 disclosure. I wonder -- I guess I amend the
17 motion.
18 I think the first thing we want to do is
19 make sure on the web site that you have
20 developed that every contribution, whether in
21 kind or cash, be immediately disclosed, because
22 that's obviously a part of the way of dealing
23 with these issues.
24 I think the second part is, in your
25 proposal you mentioned two variables. I think
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1 that has to be fleshed out more by this
2 Committee.
3 One is to avoid disproportionality between
4 the two groups that are represented on the
5 Commission, and second is a cap on individual
6 contributions by any one entity.
7 I guess my hope would be the subcommittee
8 could deal with both of those issues and come
9 back to the Commission with a proposal that
10 addresses both cap and a mechanism to deal with
11 disproportionate funding from one side or the
12 other.
13 MR. LEBRUN: Depending on whom you read,
14 who you listened to, I have been referred to as
15 a private citizen, former legislator, former
16 Speaker of the House, and president of the
17 National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform
18 State Laws. When Senator Dashle asked if I would be interested in
19 serving on this Commission, he didn't ask if I
20 would help fund it.
21 I think all of us bring some expertise to
22 this Commission, and we're here because we have
23 some expertise and can contribute something. I
24 do think there are some of us around this table
25 that don't represent any particular organization
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1 or organizations that have funds in their
2 budgets even to the tune of $150,000.
3 I happen to be President of NCCUSL
4 Our total budget is 1 million 5. I know that
5 they don't have that kind of money in the
6 budget, so I would support the idea of a
7 subcommittee to look into this. I think it
8 would be unfair to ask every organization, every
9 Commissioner to come up with $150,000.
10 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Mr. Chairman, my only
11 suggestion -- I agree with what Grover said.
12 However, the one difference I had that I think
13 is reflected is, we likely ought to start with a
14 Committee and recognize that we ought to ask the
15 public to fund this as opposed to the Committee
16 funding it.
17 If we start there and recognize there may
18 be people that sit around this table that should
19 not be precluded from making contributions, we
20 ought to be seeking a balanced public funding
21 through gifts and donations and grants. I feel
22 confident we can get that done.
23 I'm just arguing that we should make our
24 budget proposal temporary while we work this out
25 and come back with a formal adoption.
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1 MR. POTTRUCK: I have a couple of points.
2 Number one, I think we might consider going
3 ahead, and although businesses -- if we do it
4 this way, go ahead and approve the budget in
5 terms of the spending.
6 It looks like it's a very reasonable amount
7 of money, and some way, somehow, we have to come
8 up with the money that could effectively operate
9 under if we're going to do something productive.
10 I can't imagine any of us wants to come up
11 with a product that we wouldn't be proud of. I
12 think the budget seems quite reasonable. I
13 think we have to come up with the revenue.
14 I would suggest to the Committee for
15 consideration to give approval, number one, to
16 the expenditure level that has been proposed.
17 Secondly, I just want to be clear that I
18 wasn't suggesting before that everybody would
19 put in the same amount of money, rather that
20 there be several different levels, perhaps, and
21 I just want to be clear on that.
22 Third, as I listened to the idea of having
23 the public fund this, I just want us to consider
24 the danger of perception. In a sense, we
25 already have with the election of finance. We
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1 don't want it to look like people are buying
2 access, buying influence. I think we just have
3 to be very careful.
4 It seems to me to open up a potential
5 quagmire if we're not careful, and cap those at
6 very small donations on any individual or
7 corporate level so that there doesn't seem to
8 be -- there is so much at stake -- a perception
9 of influence-pedalling, even though it's one
10 person, one vote. I think perception is so
11 important to the issue of fairness around what
12 we do that we have to proceed extremely
13 thoughtfully.
14 Finally, I think Mike's suggestion of
15 arranging for a loan, an interim financing to
16 front the money, if we could approve the
17 expenditure level, would be a way to keep the
18 ball rolling while further consideration is
19 done. I would certainly support that.
20 MR. NOVICK: In the spirit of full
21 disclosure, it seems to me that anyone making a
22 substantial in-kind contribution ought to also
23 disclose any interest or particular interest
24 they have in the outcome of the Commission.
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: Other comments?
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1 Let me see if I can sum up several things.
2 There is an agreement that there should be a
3 subcommittee in order to determine the potential
4 solution of the revenue problem. That seems to
5 be, I think, the consensus position. The
6 objective of presenting this budget in this way,
7 including proposal for revenue, was to get
8 something on the table.
9 Let me mention again that we have one year
10 to do our work. The housekeeping has to be
11 gotten out of the way. The objective was to get
12 that done and to get it behind us, at least free
13 us to do what we have to do to achieve this.
14 I agree with the Commission's concerns. I
15 believe absolutely full disclosure, not only of
16 any amount, but any interest anybody has. That
17 is absolutely correct.
18 The agreement, the proposal we have would
19 be to solicit the funds from the members and
20 solicit from outside as well. That is a matter
21 that can be taken up by the subcommittee.
22 Let me remind you all, we cannot get bogged
23 down and delayed. An original delay was created
24 with this Commission by the filing of a lawsuit
25 which was then withdrawn.
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1 With the absence of any funding, with the
2 absence of the correct amount of people
3 appointed to be able to proceed, with the
4 absence of any ability to operate with any
5 rules, nonetheless we are here. We are moving
6 ahead decisively to get this done.
7 I wish you all to consider as we proceed to
8 any type of adoption here, that if we get bogged
9 down too far on any of the administrative
10 matters of this, it will take away from the
11 opportunity for the Commission to do what it
12 really was charged to do, and that is to
13 consider the different policy implications of
14 this and what choices have to be made so we can
15 present a proposal.
16 Nonetheless, I think that the points are
17 very well taken that the funding should not be
18 put into a position to undermine the credibility
19 of the substantive work of the Commission. I
20 absolutely agree with that.
21 So with the proposal that we have, which is
22 to adopt the subcommittee -- First of all, to
23 adopt a spending proposal, to amend that to add
24 $250,000 to go for a position of 1.7 million
25 dollars, to form a committee to determine how
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1 that is to be done, but I warn the Commission
2 that in the event that a subcommittee is not
3 able to satisfactorily get this funded over the
4 months ahead, this Commission will cease. That
5 will be a violation, I think, of the charter
6 that we have been given by the Congress of
7 United States. Bear all of that in mind.
8 The proposal we have on the table is to
9 form a subcommittee of three people to determine
10 the funding of these issues, to have full
11 disclosure totally, and to adopt the spending of
12 1.7 million dollars. That is the proposal.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Could I maybe make a
14 suggestion. It could be my roots, or because
15 I'm a businessman. Could I ask to separate the
16 establishment of the Commission and the
17 conditions that Commission would operate under
18 and the disclosure from the approval of the
19 authority to spend to the level of 1.7 million
20 dollars.
21 I think we're going to get together and
22 figure out with Heather how much we can put
23 together and over what time frame. By
24 definition we're going to come up with the
25 committee's recommendation to the Commission on
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1 how to go about getting all of this money.
2 I'm a little nervous in having raised three
3 daughters who would never give me their budget
4 without how they are going to raise that money.
5 And I just feel uncomfortable giving anybody the
6 authority to spend before we have an
7 understanding of how to cover what we're
8 spending. Is that acceptable if I may request?
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: Perfectly all right. I
10 might say, that as Chairman of this Commission,
11 it would be unthinkable if we spend so much as a
12 dollar without the money being in the bank,
13 unthinkable. The idea of a borrowing frightens
14 me to death. If everybody wishes to divide up
15 and sign that note, I'll be happy to allow you-
16 all to do it.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: I didn't want the budget
18 approved because that's an authorization to
19 spend it.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Governor Locke?
21 GOVERNOR LOCKE: I would like to second
22 those sentiments. I'm very concerned about the
23 expenses, and obviously, if we commit ourselves
24 to 1.7 million dollars and fall short of that or
25 realize the appropriate amount is less than
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1 that, we need to make sure we're not committing
2 ourselves to a spending that exceeds our
3 revenues.
4 As I go through these, I have some
5 questions about whether some of the spending or
6 the expenses is necessary for the Commission
7 meetings or level of staffing. I would like to
8 be able to have the opportunity talk with
9 Heather or others before I can commit to that
10 level of expenditure.
11 MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the pleasure of the
12 Commission?
13 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Mr. Chairman, I would
14 like to -- I think Mike made an offer to get a
15 group together tonight to help us figure out a
16 way to raise 3 or $400,000 that would not
17 seem -- from categories that, in the totality of
18 1.7 million, that would not seem unreasonable
19 for industry and for other groups represented at
20 this table to have donated.
21 That would require us not to borrow,
22 require us not to spend money we don't have, but
23 would get us going, and then I think we could
24 approve a first-quarter budget independent of
25 that. That would give us a sense of certainty
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1 as to not spending more money than we have.
2 I would like to just suggest one other
3 thing for your list. I would hope that this
4 subcommittee could come back with a policy
5 proposal for the group to adopt related to
6 guidelines for both disclosure and for
7 appropriate limits, and some means of balance so
8 we can formalize that process.
9 MR. CHAIRMAN: I would propose, then, that
10 we form a subcommittee. Why don't I suggest,
11 for starters, Michael Armstrong and Delna Jones
12 and myself. There is no reason why we can't
13 have input from anybody else that wishes to
14 participate on that commission or that
15 committee. Anyone else that would like to?
16 MR. NOVICK: I wasn't volunteering. Before
17 we violate our rules right away, we ought to not
18 waive the rules of the corresponding section on
19 subcommittee members and appoint five.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Appoint five.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: I would like John on there.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: I would propose this group
23 meet and have a proposal tomorrow so we could
24 move ahead. We will put this back on the agenda
25 for tomorrow afternoon.
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1 The idea, I think, of proceeding by half
2 measures on this is going to stop the Commission
3 from being able to do what it needs to do.
4 I'm going to call on Tom Griffith to give
5 us a briefing on Heather's requirements and the
6 Federal Report Claims Act.
7 MR. GRIFFITH: This will be very brief. If
8 I can be allowed just a moment. The oath that
9 you just took a few moments ago is important.
10 My comments will relate to that oath.
11 The importance of an oath became very
12 apparent to me recently. Before I
13 returned to private practice, I was the Senate's
14 legal counsel during the late, great
15 unpleasantness of the impeachment trial. You
16 may remember that that instance in our history
17 was all about oaths, oaths of presidents, oaths
18 of senators.
19 You all just took an oath. That oath gives
20 you real protection. That oath also carries with it
21 some responsibilities. The protection relates
22 to the Federal Tort Claims Act.
23 You are now public officials of the United
24 States. You're officers of the legislative
25 branch. As such, your actions in connection
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1 with your official work are the actions of the
2 United States. Were litigation to arise
3 relating to your actions here, the overwhelming
4 probability is that you would be represented by
5 the United States Department of Justice.
6 Your activities here are by and large immune
7 from liability. That's the good news about
8 taking the oath.
9 The responsibility side about taking the
10 oath is that you are public officials and are
11 now subject to statutes governing the conduct of
12 public officials, particularly the bribery
13 statute. I would point out, some of the issues
14 you have been raising right now about
15 solicitation of funds are complicated issues.
16 We will work closely with the subcommittee to
17 steer the way to do the right thing.
18 I think the two principles were correctly
19 identified, disclosure and limitations.
20 Those are the hallmarks of Federal law governing
21 public officials.
22 Finally, what I would point out, this is
23 perhaps some more good news. The nature of your
24 office is such that the Senate -- if the Senate
25 Ethics Committee, which is the ethics committee
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1 of jurisdiction here, if the Senate Ethics
2 Committee determines it is reasonable to expect
3 your work will consume less than 60 calendar
4 days in the next year, you are exempt from the
5 requirement of financial disclosure.
6 That is not to say the Commission, itself,
7 if it so determines, can not adopt its own
8 disclosure requirements. It's something you
9 ought to realize, that that requirement probably
10 does not apply to you.
11 In the past week we have been working with
12 the Senate Ethics Committee and continue to do
13 so to get a final determination on that.
14 I want to reiterate, you have great
15 protection from the oath you have taken, and you
16 have some responsibilities. We will be happy to
17 work with you to understand what those
18 responsibilities are.
19 If you have any questions, I'll be happy to
20 entertain them.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
23 Tomorrow there will be a press conference
24 that is scheduled for the Commission for members
25 of the media. Understanding the historic nature
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1 about what we're about to undertake, I hope that
2 all the members of the Commission will
3 participate.
4 The purpose of the press conference is not
5 to announce policies, since obviously, after one
6 day of consideration, we won't be in a position
7 to do that, but instead to discuss the tasks
8 ahead and the different points of view that may
9 exist among the Commission members as we go
10 forward.
11 This is scheduled immediately, as an
12 availability for the press, immediately
13 following lunch tomorrow at 1:30 at the College
14 of William & Mary University Center.
15 Now, there has been a memo that has been
16 circulated for future meeting dates. Has
17 everyone seen that memo?
18 Now, as I have said, the objective of this
19 organizational work that is being done from this
20 point to bring it to the Commission is to keep
21 us moving, and Mike and I discussed a few
22 minutes ago, April 21 of next year is the date
23 that is considered.
24 These are proposed locations that we have
25 come forward with and proposed dates. They have
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1 been, I think, previously circulated.
2 New York City, September 14 and 15; Silicon
3 Valley, California, December 14 and 15; Austin,
4 Texas, March 20 and 21st.
5 This is designed to give the appearance of
6 some geographical balance: east, west, north,
7 south, and so on, but at the same time to allow
8 the Commission to have enough meeting dates to
9 be able to consider the work of its
10 subcommittees and interact with staff groupings
11 in between.
12 We can take this up tomorrow, or, if you-
13 all have had an opportunity to check your dates
14 and would like to adopt this now and make it as
15 housekeeping, we can get it out of the way.
16 Is there consensus among the Commission
17 that we should, in fact, adopt the dates and
18 locations?
19 Mr. Pincus is shaking his head no.
20 MR. PINCUS: I know for some of us in the
21 government, the September dates, there are two
22 meetings. The APEC leaders meeting is just
23 before that, and a global business dialogue
24 meeting on the 13th in Europe that Secretary
25 Daley would be participating in and therefore I
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1 will be participating in, that will make it hard
2 to do the 14th and 15th.
3 MR. CHAIRMAN: It will not be possible for
4 this group to have a uniform consensus meeting
5 date, probably, and some flexibility by members
6 will be required to meet at all.
7 That being said, we do want to create the
8 most convenient date and location we possibly
9 can. I'm not aware of what those conferences
10 are, as to whether or not there is any
11 flexibility on your part or not. What is APECQ,
12 is that an association?
13 MR. NOVICK: Asian Pacific Economic
14 Corporation Quorum for the president and all of
15 its principals, and at least I will be there
16 participating in New Zealand.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm presently chairing for
18 the Commission of the Department of Defense on
19 domestic preparedness for terrorism. It has not
20 yet been able to get a uniform consensus of all
21 its members on every meeting date.
22 Within that recognition, we can either take
23 this up again after you have had a chance to do
24 this. We can assign this out to the Executive
25 Director to try to coordinate something, or
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1 adopt it now.
2 What is the pleasure of the Commission?
3 MR. ANDAL: It seems as though the
4 gentlemen that represent the administration may
5 have an advantage that the rest of us don't. We
6 cannot send designees to the meeting. You, I
7 think three of you, are, in fact, designees.
8 Rumor has it there are a lot of people that
9 work in the Treasury Department that trade off.
10 Could you send someone else? In other words,
11 could we send a different designee for that
12 meeting so we can get this off the ground?
13 We're having a hard time meeting. It's
14 going to be very difficult for us to agree on a
15 date.
16 MR. NOVICK: I would like to suggest, as
17 the Governor did, that maybe the Executive
18 Director be able to see whether an alternative
19 date in that same time frame is possible, at
20 least explore the option before we lock in those
21 dates.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Chairman, I did not get
23 these dates until I just pulled them out of the
24 back of this little package. I haven't the
25 faintest idea where in the world I am.
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1 I'm wondering, could we be given the
2 opportunity to check with our offices and report
3 back?
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the consensus of the
5 Commission they would like to check this without
6 adoption? We thought we had sent this out
7 earlier, but that's all right.
8 Let's take some time and see what date is
9 the best date. If you would, please consult
10 with the Executive Director. We can either
11 adopt the meetings tomorrow, or at least
12 structure the three meetings, or we can do that
13 at a later time in between meetings.
14 Mayor Kirk?
15 MAYOR KIRK: Governor, thank you. I'm
16 thrilled to be here and sorry I'm late.
17 Only because my new best friend, Mr. Waitt
18 here, is so bashful, he suggested or whispered
19 in my ear, he thought it would be a lot more
20 appropriate -- the dates are fine -- if we met
21 in Dallas rather than Austin. I kicked him
22 under the table.
23 If there are other members of the Committee
24 that find it's much easier to get to Dallas/Fort
25 Worth than other places. I just wanted you to
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1 know we would be thrilled to host you in the
2 real high tech capitol of the state.
3 Other than that, I bring you greetings from
4 the Stanley Cup champions, Dallas Stars.
5 We're just happy to be here.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
7 MAYOR KIRK: That was only semitongue-
8 in-cheek.
9 GOVERNOR LOCKE: I appreciate the Chairman
10 giving us some time to look at not only the
11 dates, I would ask that we be able to look at
12 the location of some of these meetings so they
13 are really in the heart of major transportation
14 corridors.
15 I'm sure everyone is going to be very busy,
16 and being able to minimize ground transportation
17 or taking flights to some far reaches of the
18 United States where we have to make connecting
19 flights as it is, that would be most helpful.
20 I'm wondering whether or not Dallas is a
21 better place, or we want to consider right in
22 the center, Denver.
23 MAYOR KIRK: No, no. You were doing fine.
24 GOVERNOR LOCKE: Connecting flights is a
25 concern to a lot of us. If there is a way we
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1 can explore a major hub, that would be great.
2 That would apply, although I have relatives from
3 Silicon Valley, if we were able to meet very
4 close to the San Francisco airport. There is no
5 need we have to be in Silicon Valley.
6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do I detect some concerns
7 about Williamsburg, Virginia?
8 We are at the Commission's disposal on all
9 of these matters. These locations were designed
10 as major information technology hubs as opposed
11 to transportation hubs.
12 If the Commission would prefer to have a
13 transportation hub, this is the Commission's
14 schedule. Why don't we ask each of you-all to,
15 over the next day, check your schedules against
16 the proposal, and any changes, if you would
17 present them to the Executive Director
18 designated, we will take this up tomorrow and
19 see if we can reach an agreement on location and
20 dates.
21 It doesn't have to be, by the way, on a
22 date that, Mr. Pincus or Mr. Novick, that is in
23 conflict with you. It doesn't have to be that
24 way. We can try to find a way to work with
25 everyone to the greatest extent we can.
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1 Now, other than that, that I think
2 concludes the administrative business that we
3 have on our agenda. I'm going to ask Heather to
4 give you some information regarding the rest of
5 the evening and the availability tomorrow prior
6 to adjournment.
7 Before we do that, are there other matters
8 that any members of the Commission wishes to
9 bring forward at this time?
10 Mike Leavitt?
11 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I remind you, we did not
12 conclude the matter on the Executive Director.
13 We were referring that for the budget and may
14 leave that in some way of a quandary. I thought
15 I would remind you of that and seek the Chair's
16 advice on how to proceed.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: My intention was to present
18 that tomorrow at the time that we resolved the
19 budget.
20 It need not be. Is there a motion to adopt
21 the Chair's appointment for Executive Director?
22 MR. ANDAL: I will move that.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a second?
24 MR. NORQUIST: Second.
25 MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a second. All in
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1 favor of that?
2 I'm sorry, discussion? Mike Leavitt?
3 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: One discussion. I would
4 like to just be candid about this. I don't know
5 Heather. I think we will all come to be very
6 fond of her.
7 I think it's important that we acknowledge
8 there has been a certain tension around the
9 creation of this Commission that has delayed our
10 launch and made it awkward for us.
11 I would also like to say, Jim, I think the
12 work you have done in propelling this forward is
13 heroic. I'm very supportive of it.
14 However, I think the role of Executive
15 Director is going to be a very important part of
16 being able to get this group working together in
17 a cohesive, collegial way.
18 There will be not just an Executive
19 Director hired, but be research assistants,
20 communication directors, research analysts. All
21 of those things will be very substantive parts
22 of our work.
23 Because we're only meeting three times --
24 four times, it's very likely that much of the
25 substance will be written by those people.
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1 I think it is very important that everyone
2 at this table, no matter what their interest,
3 and, hopefully, all of our interests are the
4 same, that we are confident that the person
5 driving that process 365 days comes to it
6 without any conflicts, comes to it without
7 any -- with the skill set we're interested in.
8 And, Heather, I hope you understand, this
9 is not intended in any way to be personal.
10 I would like to suggest that it would be of
11 great value in terms of the long-term operation
12 of this Commission if there was, in the same way
13 we have a budget committee, a group that was
14 designated to determine what kind of a criteria
15 we need. Then bring a recommendation back to
16 us.
17 I feel fine about making the motion that
18 Heather continue to serve as Interim Director,
19 and maybe this is pro forma. I do think it's an
20 important part of the process of making this
21 launch with a sense of comfort on the part of
22 everyone.
23 MR. CHAIRMAN: Other discussion?
24 MR. NORQUIST: The Executive Director
25 serves at the will of the Commission at all
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1 times? So I don't see the difference between
2 hiring Heather now and hiring her temporarily.
3 If for some reason we find ourselves unhappy, we
4 could do something about it.
5 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: The difference is we are
6 making a conclusion right now that would not be
7 fair to Heather if we chose somebody else,
8 because it would be -- raise the conclusion that
9 somehow we weren't happy.
10 In fact, I think we all have to be very
11 happy with the work she has done so far, and I
12 salute it.
13 MR. NORQUIST: She is listening in, so she
14 wouldn't be surprised if there is some problem
15 down the road. Whether we hire her permanently
16 now or temporarily now, if three months down the
17 road we didn't like Heather, we could change it.
18 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Grover, the problem we
19 have is the presumption. I would like to start
20 without presumptions and make this analysis so
21 as to assure that we're all moving forward
22 together as a Commission and not just for
23 expedience's sake using a course.
24 MR. NORQUIST: My point is, she heard that
25 conversation. She knows there isn't that
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1 presumption. It shouldn't be a problem.
2 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: It shouldn't be a
3 problem either way, I guess.
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Other discussion?
5 Joe?
6 MR. GUTTENTAG: Mr. Chairman, you said
7 before, and I think wisely, we should not be
8 spending money that we don't have. What kind of
9 financial commitment are we undertaking by
10 hiring her, and do we have the funds that we can
11 hire her for any period of time, or does it have
12 to be on an interim basis?
13 MS. ROSENKER: The Commonwealth of Virginia
14 has already contributed the funds from which I
15 am currently being compensated.
16 MR. CHAIRMAN: Other questions?
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: I was going to make the
18 same point that Joe did. Until this five-man
19 Task Force meets, we don't know how we're going
20 to raise the money, and until we have this
21 meeting before dinner in order to determine how
22 much interim financing we have, I think Governor
23 Leavitt's observation is, in fact, the way the
24 place is going to operate.
25 Second, I do think, though, that the point
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1 he makes, that it would be in our best interests
2 to define the purpose -- I think it's a big
3 difference between David's chief administration
4 officer and Mike's chief executive officer. We
5 ought to, I think, as a Commission, define what
6 we're paying for and what we expect.
7 So I do support that. I think it's fine,
8 whether it's voted frankly that she is the
9 director or interim director, because until we
10 come up with how we're going to pay for the
11 director, unless you are into being part of this
12 given arrangement, we're not going to have you
13 permanently until we figure out how to pay for
14 you.
15 MR. ANDAL: Perhaps I could amend that
16 motion. That is to approve the choice of
17 Heather as our Executive Director subject to
18 available funds.
19 MR. NORQUIST: Second.
20 MR. ANDAL: So we can get on with it.
21 MR. CHAIRMAN: The amended proposal is that
22 Heather is adopted subject to the funding.
23 Let me, if I could, speak to this for just
24 a moment, Ladies and Gentlemen. This Commission
25 was hard enough to get started as it is. Its
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1 challenge remains ahead of it on substantive
2 issues that remain to be thrashed out.
3 If the Commission hopes to get on to the
4 substantive business instead of keeping
5 housekeeping constantly on the table, some
6 decisions have to be made, and quality of
7 leadership is, in fact, to make decisions and to
8 act.
9 Heather has been secured certainly by me as
10 Chairman in order to bring her forward and in
11 order to, in good faith, do the work of this
12 Commission.
13 The assessment so far is that, to quote,
14 the people are happy with the work she has done
15 and salute her. There is a Certain sense of
16 reliance that a person has when they decide to
17 come on board to do a job for the Commission.
18 And furthermore, as Chairman, this thing would
19 never go unless a decision was made to act, and
20 that is what we have done.
21 So my hope is that the Commission will, in
22 fact, approve this lady, subject to funding, so
23 that we can continue to move ahead to what the
24 real issues are.
25 MR. ANDAL: Mr. Chairman, something else
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1 that might help, by the time we meet tomorrow, a
2 proposed duty statement could be put forward so
3 we're not talking about two different things,
4 everybody knows what she is going to do.
5 That seems to be something the Chairman
6 could do and circulate tomorrow so everybody
7 knows exactly what it is we expect of her.
8 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I make a substitute
9 motion, that is, that we ask the Chair to create
10 for the ratification of the Commission the job
11 description of the Executive Director that would
12 specify the duties and the skills that are
13 necessary for a person to do those tasks, and
14 the Commission have a chance to review that. I
15 make that as a form of substitute motion.
16 I will go on to say, I personally believe
17 and I may be the only person here at this table,
18 and I'm willing to accept the Commission's
19 point, there would be value in us not simply
20 assuming that we have got a capable person and
21 now we're going to draft a description of what
22 we want.
23 I'm not certain that that is the right
24 order. I'm prepared to accept it. I think
25 Heather is an able person.
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1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Now the full motion is to
2 adopt Heather and to do a job description for
3 the approval by the Commission tomorrow, and
4 this is subject to the funding being made
5 available.
6 Mayor Kirk?
7 MAYOR KIRK: Governor Gilmore, I just want
8 you to make sure I'm in full comport with what
9 you said, particularly representing the cities
10 and the counties and local government officials
11 being that group that was most discomforted by
12 this process.
13 I also concurred that -- The hour is
14 getting late. We have a lot to do. We can
15 spend a lot of time getting the room right and
16 the chairs, and I'm much more concerned about
17 the substance of it.
18 I can tell you, Governor Gilmore, I
19 appreciate you taking the reins on this and
20 going forth with it. There are no biases in
21 terms of staff. I would only ask that your
22 motion be amended.
23 In terms of what we know they are being
24 paid, at least in the broad budget I got, it
25 said $750,000 for staff. I didn't know if it
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1 meant one person was getting half a million and
2 everybody else was working for $50,000. It
3 didn't say.
4 I would only just ask, within the context
5 of that, we know exactly what the salaries are
6 for whatever those staff people make.
7 Governor, I wholeheartedly concur with you.
8 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I accept that amendment.
9 MAYOR KIRK: I think we need to get going.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: I think Mayor Kirk wants to
11 know what she will be compensated.
12 GOVERNOR LOCKE: Mr. Chairman, I do want to
13 also express my appreciation for all the efforts
14 that you have made in organizing this. I think
15 it would be perhaps better if we just take this
16 vote on Heather tomorrow when we have already
17 had the benefit of the subcommittee meeting
18 talking about exactly how we're going to raise
19 the dollars so we have a better idea of the
20 budget, the salary, the job description.
21 I'm sure at that point I will be able to
22 support Heather as director. I think we're
23 putting a little bit of the cart before the
24 horse.
25 If we're going to have deliberation tonight
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1 by a subcommittee on both the job description in
2 terms of the financing, the salary, and all that
3 information, we ought to have all of that
4 information ahead of us so when we make that
5 vote, it doesn't look like we're simply voting
6 first and then having all the information coming
7 out afterwards.
8 I'm more than prepared to move forward as
9 the Mayor of Dallas indicated. We have got so
10 many things to go. I think you have been able
11 to organize this thing fantastically. I think
12 it's a more proper forum to have this
13 information before us and then vote.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: The issue on the table is
15 whether to adopt the Chairman's appointment of
16 an Executive Director subject to funding and
17 also with a job description being approved by
18 the Commission at tomorrow's meeting. That is
19 the motion that is on the floor. What is the
20 will of the Commission?
21 If the Commission is, in fact, to defer the
22 entire matter, then vote no. If it is, in fact,
23 to, as Mayor Kirk suggested, to make this
24 appointment, get some of the business behind us,
25 and move forward, then vote yes.
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1 All those in favor of the motion --
2 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I have one more piece of
3 discussion.
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Governor Leavitt.
5 GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I am very comfortable
6 with your motion. I would suggest if we're
7 going to vote for Executive Director, we ought
8 to do it tomorrow after we know what the job
9 description is and if we have a budget for it.
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: That concurs with Governor
11 Locke's statement.
12 MR. LEBRUN: I would move to table the
13 motion until tomorrow morning.
14 MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion to table
15 the motion until tomorrow morning.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Second it.
17 MR. CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of
18 tabling it say aye.
19 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye.
20 MR. CHAIRMAN: All those opposed?
21 COMMISSION MEMBERS: No.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of the
23 motion, please raise your hand.
24 I count 10, being an absolute majority.
25 The motion is tabled until tomorrow morning.
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1 Heather, with some trepidation, I'm not
2 sure why I'm asking you to do this, I will now
3 ask you to discuss with the members of the
4 Commission the other arrangements that are being
5 made.
6 MS. ROSENKER: Obviously, there are lots of
7 logistics that go together in pulling a meeting
8 like this together. At the last minute this
9 morning, we had an additional change to the
10 agenda. I will pass out new agendas for this
11 evening as well as tomorrow.
12 Just an addition to the agenda, just so
13 that everyone knows, number one, Mr. Sidgmore is
14 going to do a vision of the Internet for us
15 first thing in the morning.
16 Secondly, we have added a good hour for
17 discussion at the end of the day. As the
18 Governor wants, when we finish with these
19 logistics, we will discuss a work plan that he
20 would like you and your staff to discuss between
21 now and then so we can have some discussion.
22 Additionally, tonight transportation will
23 be leaving and picking you and your guests up at
24 6:00 from the Inn, as well as those folks
25 leaving from the Lodge for your dinner. There
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1 will be staff at the doors to direct you where
2 you need to go. There are pins in front of you
3 on the table. We're using those tomorrow, so we
4 don't have name tags. That is for the security
5 folks.
6 There is a special entrance for you at the
7 Commission hearing. Please wear those. It will
8 be helpful.
9 One last thing. Mayor Kirk, Mr. Pottruck,
10 Governor Locke, I believe that there are
11 affidavits in front of you that we need you to
12 sign, please, for your oath. If you would do
13 that before you leave and make sure that Carol
14 Comstock gets that. She is our notary public.
15 Governor, that's all.
16 MR. POTTRUCK: Just given the fact that
17 we're a little bit behind plan on meeting time,
18 are there going to be several buses if you miss
19 the first bus?
20 MS. ROSENKER: We'll come back to pick you
21 up.
22 MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that concludes what
23 we're able to accomplish for today. We will be
24 meeting in the morning, beginning the
25 substantive work of the Commission.
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1 Is there a motion to adjourn? All in
2 favor?
3 COMMISSION MEMBERS: Aye.
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Stand in adjournment.
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6 (Meeting adjourned at 6:00 p.m.)
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1 COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA,
2 CITY OF RICHMOND, to wit:
3
4 I, Carol Hill, a Notary Public for the State of
5 Virginia at Large, do hereby certify that the
6 foregoing meeting was duly taken at the time and place
7 set out in the caption hereto. Further, that the
8 transcript of the meeting is true and correct.
9 Given under my hand this 28th day of June, 1999.
10
11 _____________________________
Carol Hill, RPR-CM
12 Notary Public for the
State of Virginia at Large
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14 My Commission expires:
15 January 31, 2002
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